Facebook Capitalism/Socialism Discussion

This discussion happened over the last couple of days in response to my facebook status update. Very worthwhile and informative. If only this discussion could be as openly discussed with every person who thinks government participation in markets is okay. Enjoy!

Brad ***** The government gets it's power from its citizens. It can not justly do anything that I as a citizen can not do myself. If it does, that action is criminal; period.
Sat at 9:14pm · Comment · LikeUnlike · View Feedback (18)Hide Feedback (18)

Bryan *****, Dave *****, J Kalani ***** and 2 others like this.

Brad Green
Aside from posting that statement, I'd like to mention that I agree with the cultural norms of our grandparents: Anyone participating in government handouts may be justly shunned for their role in stealing our property and freedom, and consequently their own. TAKE RESPONSIBILITY OF YOUR LIFE FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!
Sat at 9:18pm · Delete

James *****
Wait...that makes sense. It sounds like what the founders talked about. It sounds like what Ayn Rand wrote about. It sounds like what Ezra T. Benson preached about. Now why can't our lawmakers who swore an oath to defend these Constitutional principles follow it? Why do so many of our fellow citizens encourage them to do so rather than be productive and earn their keep?
Sat at 11:41pm · Delete

Cory *****
In the last year and half i've been through 4 jobs, lost my house, my car, moved from my home city and started anew in a completely foreign place (well mostly - Northern Utah is a different animal from SLC). I didn't stop working at any point - if one job ended I went to find the next one. I am back in school 12 hours a semester, working full time and trying my ass off to provide for 4 kids. This is not someplace I had planned to be at 32 years old, but I have tried my best to make the most of it. If not for things like food assistance (WIC) and CHIP, the last couple years would have been a lot tougher than they were. My family has helped us as best they can, my church has pitched in as needed, but thank God that Utah has a pretty well run welfare program that has proved things for my kids that I have not been able to, despite my best efforts. Hopefully when I am back on my feet I can provide that kind of assistance to other families who have fallen on hard times and are doing their best to get back up, but I pray that these state programs can provide in the interrim for those people. The point is I've taken responsibility for my life at every turn - I've made more lemonade in the last 2 years than i care to ever remember - but sometimes all the responsibility in the world just can't put food on the table or get your kid to see a doctor when it's absolutely neccesary. I heed the worlds of the prophets, too, guys. But if this last couple years of trials for me and my family sounds like the kind of thing you are talking about, start shunning me by removing me from your friends list.

But it sounds like I owe you guys and the people who 'liked' this thread an apology for stealing your property and your freedom, and for not staying productive and earning my keep. I am sorry for that; I wish I had some control over things in the last little while. But on a positive note, I didn't take the mortgage refinance and chose to face foreclosure instead, I turned down Medicare insurance for my wife and I (we are both uninsured now) and I sold my car at a loss rather than try to trade it in during the cash for clunkers thing. Now I get to walk home from work usually once a week. Fortunately global warming has kept Logan from dropping below freezing before about 9 PM so it's not too cold yet. Yes that was sarcasm I don't buy into global warming. Just trying to be funny cuz there's not much to laugh about at the tail end of thread accusing you of being a thief and a lout. How's that for crying out loud?
Yesterday at 11:37pm · Delete

Brad *****
Cory, I understand where you're coming from. This post was my way of responding to one of my most respected mentors' attempted persuasion that I should take advantage of all the free programs out there. I choose not to. Until the time comes where my children are threatened by starvation or exposure to the weather, I will view these programs as a worse evil. Allowing my children to starve would be worse, however in my opinion.

Now about my last couple of years: In 2007 I made just over one million dollars. By the end of January 2008 the real estate market had changed enough that I couldn't close any deal I needed to keep my business afloat. I tried unsuccessfully until May when I informed my creditors that I would have to personally repay their money someday because my business was dead. Since then, I've lost my two BMWs, two snowmobiles, and all of my houses (to foreclosure) including my home. After six months without income, I finally gave up being self-employed and went to work as a salesman for a plumbing wholesaler. It has been very difficult to keep food on the table and the heat on. We've been shut off a few times but have managed to get through. We live in a 4-plex apartment now and have one 12-year old car we've spent two weeks trying to get past safety inspection so we can pay another tax to drive our own property. In the mean time, the police are pulling us over for late registration.

As I said, I know where you're coming from. I understand the justification going on in your head. If you're honest with yourself, I believe you'd admit that your kids wouldn't have starved or frozen to death had you not let the government bail YOU out. Do I think you should go to jail for your involvement? No. But I have no problem with you feeling embarrassed by it; and if you are, then you're still okay in my book. That means you don't feel entitled to it. I believe when the government gets out of the people's way, we'll recover in huge leaps and bounds economically. Until more people start relying on themselves instead of the government, we're going to slip further and further into poverty and totalitarianism.

Thank you for sharing your personal experience. May life be better for us all.
13 hours ago · Delete

Cory *****
Well I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one; clearly you've been through rougher times than me in the last little bit, and well done on keeping up the effort. In brief I'll say this: I refused every form of federal government assistance that was offered to me on the grounds that I don't think the fed has any authority to take money from one to give to another, but I have taken state assistance for the fact that my interpetation of the 10th amendment gives the state that right. However I am embaraased by the fact that I have been unable to provide these basic things for my kids at times, and due to that fact I will work tirelessly until I feel right with the world again. There is no question that I don't feel entitled to anything someone else produces, but I also have to be thankful for the fact that these programs wre in place when I needed them most. Those I could decline, I did (like insurance), but thank God for the fact that a couple of them were available to me as an option when all my other channels had worn out.

In short I concede your point but argue the mechanics of it. Perhaps I took too hard-nosed a stance in my initial response, but I'm sure you can see from my perspective how this thread looked. I'm glad we got the chance to share some stories, and indeed may God bless us all in His own way in the times to come.
10 hours ago · Delete

Michael *****
Aren't we supposed to go to the Church before the government though? They will always help with feeding one's family. In my opinion, there is never a reason to go on the socialist government dole and use taxpayer's money which was forced from them and into programs that they have no control over.
6 hours ago · Delete

James *****
Can you imagine...if instead of paying 36%+ in taxes, what if i paid them 2% (for Constitutionally approved items), and kept the other 34%? What would I do with that? Create more jobs? Absolutely. Spend a little more on my family? You bet! Donate more to local churches and charities? YES!

As the government pushes out private companies (churches included) and takes their place in the market, people are willing to donate to these less. This is part of the plan. It is self destructive, but planned that way.

Because nature abhors a vacuum, and as people we are generally good natured, eliminating these government programs would lead to more charitable donations.
4 hours ago · Delete

Brad *****
Michael, "supposed" is a loaded word. You know that. ;) As to the comment, not all people have a "church" to go to. But interestingly, I showed this discussion to a coworker who is an LDS bishop and he says the recommendation from the church handbook is to have people ask for help from the following sources (in order) family, friends, government, then the church. However, I would probably rather steal from someone than let me children die of starvation or exposure. Even if the just consequence was for me to go to jail.

James, yes, Yes, YES! I'm actually writing a book about this exact phenomenon. As the government has increased its role in our lives, the citizens of this country have gradually become less charitable, less wealthy, less optimistic, and less happy. Or to look at the other side: more greedy, more poor, more pessimistic, more depressed.

Socialism: Modern Day Slavery
3 hours ago · Delete

Cory *****
to which I will add 2 things: if you are ever in a situation that you have exhausted every other means available to you and you genuinely don't know where your next meal is going to come from, then let's talk about "never a reason." Second, let's also remember that, so far as we are talking about state and local government, there are no constitutional restraints on which the local legislature cannot act beyond those enumerated in the US constitution. Therefore, as long as the citizens of Utah elect leaders they believe to be meeting their needs, they have complete say over what happens at a local level. So no taxpayer money is forced out of anyone; and if you feel like you don't have control, get out and campaign for new representation. The electorate dictates who goes to represent them, and to the extent that the representation does not satisfy the needs of its base, that same electorate can oust their representative. Congress is shackled by the constitution, but state government is specifically empowered by it. I'm not for government health care, but if it came up on Utah's capitol hill I couldn't make the argument that it's against the constitution; I'd have to find some other argument. It is the same with state welfare programs. The point is we have plenty of control over this stuff; your vote is your control.

All I'm saying is let's qualify these differences between state and federal governments. The Founder's recognized such differences and specifically created protections for that distinction. Federal burecrats have worked tirelessly in the last 100 years or so to erode those distinctions, but they exist nonetheless and for good reason. That's all I'm asking.

Lastly before we get too accusatory of socialism as a concept, someone please tell me what they think the United Order is. Perhaps a better interpretation is, when administered with compassion and in the absence of personal ambition, socialism can work great. But for our greedy and selfish times, yes indeed it is akin to slavery.
2 hours ago · Delete

Michael *****
Haha Brad you know me well ;) And I thought that in the handbook it said church then government. Thanks for setting that straight. And yes, I would rather steal than let my family starve. In an ideal society, we would care for those around us in need so that they would not need the dole, but this is hardly an ideal society at this point. And I'm sorry to hear that things turned south for you, but I know you and I know that you will bounce back well, given the time you need. I wish you all the best and you and your family are in my prayers. :)
about an hour ago · Delete

Brad *****
Wow. Cory, you and I could talk for hours about this topic and we should. There are a few things I think would differentiate my stand on government:

1. Government is a gun. The only power government has is the power to enforce laws using the threat of force. Taxes were originally voluntary, but now are enforced by threat of force.

2. Although the Constitution of the United States of America has reserved greater power to the states, each state has a constitution that is also designed to reign in government power to protect the freedom of its citizens. Most of these documents (including Utah's) reserved greater power for smaller government bodies, ie... counties, cities etc... Governments have been instituted among men to preserve liberty, not grant prosperity. Many of the roles the state governments play weren't allowed by their original constitutions. These documents have been amended to allow for greater role of government in their citizens lives. These laws are now completely legal much like the federal laws we disagree with, that doesn't make them morally right. They still take from some citizens without their consent with threat of force; use some and pass some on to other citizens. This is morally wrong.... Read More

3. This brings us to the united order. I once shared your opinion that the united order is just "righteous communism" with the dictator being the only innocent human to ever live on earth, human nature gets put on hold and we don't need to choose between ourselves and everyone else. There is an important difference between this order and communism: choice. Remember the war in heaven? Me either. But I do remember what I was taught about it. Force us to do what's right or let us choose and make mistakes. This is and has been the largest, longest-lasting war EVER. Force or choice. Which one is God's way?

God is a capitalist. Proper choices lead to positive results, force always leads to negative results. I stand on the side of choice. ALWAYS.
about an hour ago · Delete

Cory *****
You are right and I am not disagreeing. I'm only stating that local governments, which are more in touch with the people, are better able to serve the needs of their constituents, and those constituients can choose to pass laws or not based on their view of the community's needs. I'm not for a second disputing that even local governments are not serving their bases properly, or that they are not living up to their own constitutional requirments. To that end we don't disagree; these things are morally wrong. I guess I am just trying to suggest that the ends of compassion can be served by a government agency so long as that agency is in fact meeting the needs of its electorate, by which I mean adminstering compassion in a manner agreed upon by the voters. If it's within the scope of the supreme law (a constitution) and voted upon by the public, then it is morally acceptable. This also assumes that the voting public are a moral people who have compassion as their motivator and not selfishness. Clearly there is a problem with this logic, and I admit I am trying to take a "glass is half full" perspective with this line of reasoning. I am also trying to justify the fact that I have partaken of this system, more to my shagrin, and am grateful today for its existence. I suppose I should just own the fact that I am a hypocrit right now and stop trying to justify my acceptance of something I morally oppose. I'm just trying to do what's best for my kids. Insert some comment regarding "jusitification" and "masturbation" here.

And I agree whole-heartedly with what you said regarding the United Order. It is a socialistic system, but one predicated on choice which is why it works. This because those who participate in it have chosen to grant their labors to a cause greater than themselves, and it is administered by the only perfect being ever to have lived. If it were any other way, it would be no different than any socialist or communist regime before it. So as you aptly put, the difference is choice. We are clearly arguing the same point, at least so it appears to me.

We should indeed discuss this more at length, althought I fear we may end up preaching to the choir as we probably aren't as dissimilar in our views as these postings might indicate to the casual observer. If you're ever in Logan, let's do lunch.
43 minutes ago · Delete

Brad *****
Cory. Well stated. I believe very strongly in associating with like-minded individuals. We seem to be such. Next time I'm up that way, I'll let you know. It will probably be next Tuesday (a week from tomorrow). I go as far north as bountiful on Tuesdays. Likewise if you're ever in Utah county give me a call. I'll message you my contact info.

On a side note about the united order, I believe that the temple-worthy members of the LDS church are already supposed to be living this order. We've covenanted to such. I'm still struggling to get my home teaching done and get to church every week. No one's perfect; well there was this one guy once...
10 minutes ago · Delete

Somalian Pirate Terrorists

I'm reading all about Somalian pirates lately. Why the heck is this getting so much attention and how is it not more simple than this? When force is initiated by another against you, you have the right to return force.

Were I in charge of the situation, I would refuse to negotiate in any way with these terrorists. The 3-step plan I would use to remedy the situation follows:

1) Train as many weapons on the pirates as possible.
2) Notify the pirates that they have five minutes to surrender the captain and themselves to stay alive. Let them know that at the 5 minute marker we would shoot one pirate every minute until their complete surrender or annihilation. If harm comes to the captain, this would end our interest in their vessel and it would be completely destroyed with no mercy to occupants. (military ordinance sufficient to vaporize the boat is present)
3) Carry out the plan.

Is there risk that the US freight captain could be harmed or killed? Yes. There is fairly good likelihood already. The only card these pirates would have is the well-being of their hostage. Regardless of outcome in this situation, following this methodology would definitely be a very effective deterrent against future standoffs of this type.

"Stand up for freedom, no matter what the cost."

Pamela Anderson, Tuesday, wrote a letter of recommendation to President Elect Obama asking him to legalize marijuana, take steps to "prevent" molestation, along with other things. You can read this article at the following web address:
http://www.pamelachannel.com/channel/2008/11/18/recommended-reading-to-mr-president-elect-obama-from-pamela-anderson/

I agree and disagree with the points in her letter and as such would like to comment on them.

1. Leonard Peltier was convicted by a jury of his peers. He exercised his right to an appeal as is proper when one believes they've been wrongly convicted; the conviction stood. Either a) he's guilty; or b) the system is broken and needs to be fixed. Either way, he is to stay in jail until one of those things change.

2. The jails are full due to constantly growing legislation in the realm of "malum prohibitam". Solution: stop prohibiting things that don't violate other peoples RIGHTS.

3. Preventing molestation by castrating potential molestors sounds outwardly like a great solution; but who get's to decide who the people are that get their jewels cut off because they're a "potential" molestor? That sounds like a direct violation of their right to chose if they will actually commit the crime! This one idea won't fill the jails up more, but the jails are full of people who haven't actually committed crimes "malum in se". Creating laws prohibiting certain acts to prevent actual crimes only fill up the jails with people who haven't yet actually violated anyone's rights.

4. Legalise marijuana and hemp. How does posessing or even using these herbs personally affect anyone but yourself? People argue that someone that is 'high' could drive wrecklessly and kill someone accidentally or damage property; I agree. There's already laws against vehicular manslaughter. If they cause damage to someone else or their property, they should be punished for that damage. Laws that attempt to prevent someone from having access to these herbs don't work and cause corruption and increased jail time for people that don't want to be ruled by an authoritative government. These plants can be used for so much more than recreational consumption, but there's nothing 'malum in se' (wrong) with even using them recreationally.

5. Bring the troops home safely. Yes, always. Make sure bad people know we're not afraid to shoot back, then put our guns away when "the coast is clear".

6. "Stop animal testing" she claims this is unproductive and mean. I posit that we should stop government involvement in scientific research and let people using unproductive research methods go bankrupt for their inability to adapt to a constantly changing scientific world. Punish researchers if they violate other PEOPLE's rights.

7. Get rid of private insurance and private medicine? Let the government handle it? WTF? Does she even listen to herself? (see her arguments 1-6) The government screws up everything it touches! We should only let the government control what can not be more fairly controlled by individuals or businesses that can be boycotted by market forces. The degree to which the government has become involved in any industry (especially medical) is the degree to which they fail!

8. Promote vegetarianism? This is an example of the unintended consequences in making the government responsible for our health (see 7). It's cheaper on everyone if we just live healthily, so it does hurt other people if we're not vegetarians, or exercise two hours a day, or sleep enough, etc. you get the point. Seeing healthy people living happily around us promotes a healthy lifestyle; if you want to promote it: be it!

9. Shut down Guantanamo Bay; I agree. All human beings have natural rights to their life and the productive result thereof (life liberty and the pursuit of happiness). ALL other roads lead to oppression, death and destruction. Government was instituted by men to protect these rights and should be dissolved when it becomes destructive to this end.

10. Immigration, taxation, and entitlement mentality are indisputably connected. Here's how you solve them: bring us your poor, your tired, or your huddled masses; we'll let them work and keep what they create. The work they produce here in our country creates wealth for all who participate. If you don't work, and don't create anything; the laws of the universe dictate that you will perish of exposure, thirst, or hunger. Create value for a church or charity or caring person and they'll help keep you alive even if this value is only feeling good about helping you. Create value somehow or die. So say the laws of the universe.

The one and only job of the government is to defend and preserve liberty. Anything more or less allows tyranny and will always, always, ALWAYS lead to death, hatred, and unhappiness.

Government is not the solution to our problem; Government is the problem - Ronald Reagan, first inaugural address, Tuesday, January 20, 1981.

Fiat Currency - A friend's take:

The following article was posted by a close friend of mine, Ryan Nelson. I thought it noteworthy as he articulates very well the concept of fiat currency and how important for each of us to understand this concept and the unintended consequences of the actions being taken by our elected representatives as well as an appointed few. Enjoy this terrific "light reading":

Patric Henry...... Today.

“Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains & slavery?... I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death!” These bold, passionate words spoken by Patrick Henry in 1775 still touch & inspire freedom loving souls across the country. Yet as I recently reread his speech this closing statement is not what most impacted me. His opening arguments in many ways seem much more timely. Addressing those of his day unwilling to take action or even make preparations, those who clung vainly to hope of reconciliation with England. He proposed that;

“…it is natural to man to indulge in the illusions of hope. We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth, and listen to the song of that siren, (in mythology a siren is an evil mermaid) till she transforms us into beasts. Is this the part of wise men, engaged in a great and arduous struggle for liberty? Are we disposed to be of the number of those who, having eyes, see not, and having ears, hear not, the things which so nearly concern their temporal salvation? For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst and to provide for it.
I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided; and that is the lamp of experience. I know of no way of judging of the future but by the past.”

Am I the only one to find that insightful? Don’t we all at some point “indulge in illusions of hope” or “shut our eyes against a painful truth”? I would like for a moment to use history to analyze the economic state of our nation & venture an opinion of the future.

A Fiat currency is any monetary system where the medium of exchange is not backed by something of intrinsic value. It can be gold, silver, diamonds or land, anything which cannot readily be reproduced or forged. Our Dollar, like most currencies around the world, is a Fiat currency. This style of monetary system has been tried repeatedly over many years, in all parts of the world, by all types of governments. The Chinese & Mongols tried as did, among others, the Romans and Germans. It has in every case failed miserably. Because there is no physical limit or check on how much can be printed, every nation inevitably deludes their economy with so much money that the currency looses its value. Trust in the currency is lost & the market crashes. This crash always results in a new currency & many times is accompanied by a new form of government. The question is are we, can we, as Americans be the exception to the rule?

I understand that up until about 4 months ago the average number of US Dollars in circulation was approximately 800 billion. Anyone know what it is today? When you add up the FORCED bank bailouts, the purchase of a controlling share of AIG, the economic stimulus packages and all the other hokey spending decisions, the number of available dollars is well over 2 trillion. In the last several weeks the amount of money in circulation has tripled. And they are talking about adding more.

There are soooo many problems with what is being done to our money and the way it is being done. But the one which will directly affect each of our lives in the not far distant future is inflation, HUGE, RAPID inflation. Look at it like this, the amount of products and services available for purchase has not changed. Yet the amount of dollars available to spend on those same products has tripled. Sooner or later someone will be able and willing to pay 3 times as much for the same item. Think about all of the products imported from Asia & elsewhere. Our money supply increases yet theirs remains constant. What does that do to our ability to purchase their products? In order to maintain a fair balance in trade they must of necessity increase prices. The price we pay for every item across the board will rise. Our cost of living will likely double or worse. We cannot now change it, the die has already been cast. Although currently low, due to supply & demand issues of both product & money, prices will rise drastically. Wages will not rise equally nor simultaneously. Real wages (wage adjusted for inflation) are among the lowest levels in more than 50 years. Inflation does not help the average Joe. Our standard of living, the way we live our lives is about to change.

These events were knowingly or otherwise set in motion nearly a hundred years ago when in December of 1913 the Federal Reserve act was passed. This act created a system of government accepted private banks known as the Federal Reserve System. It also transferred the power to coin money & regulate its supply to this same unaccountable private organization. A strict interpretation of the Constitution of the United States would consider this action Unconstitutional. President Woodrow Willson signed the Federal Reserve Act into law. He later lamented,

“I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country…. The growth of the nation … and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men.”

I believe it to be imperative for us as responsible citizens to know & understand these things. We cannot effect positive change in the direction of our nation without knowledge. I echo the words of Patrick Henry, “For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst and to provide for it.”Be watchful, be aware & most of all be prepared.

In all of this there is a ray of hope. God is in control, our days will not be numbered less. He is watching over us & will protect us & see us through, come what may. Further there are prophecies which promise that this, the greatest of all nations, will not fall. It will be preserved, upheld and even rescued. As you prepare and make the necessary physical changes to ready yourself and your family for the pending crisis. Search your soul, identify what part you may be asked to play in the rescue of the Constitution & prepare for that as well.

For What it’s Worth

Ryan

Rogue Agency Arrests Stay-at-home Mother of Eight.

About the Author

Rick Koerber is the founder of the Free Capitalist Project. He is an entrepreneur, talk radio host, and opinion leader active in his community and motivated to serve in the cause of liberty. Rick and his family live in Utah County, UT.

See All Posts by This Author

Rogue Agency Arrests Stay-at-Home Utah Mom

September 8th, 2008 • Related • Filed Under

Filed Under: FC Opinion • Featured • Principle 02 • Principle 07 • Principle 10 • Principle 11 • Principle 12 • Principle 13 • Utah Gov't Corruption • Week of 08/31/08

Tags: business • Corruption • Departmet of Commerce • Fraud • Giani • government • politics • Tyranny • Utah

Imagine you’re Annie Bradley, a married stay-at-home mother of eight. Two weeks before your 43rd birthday, its 9:00 pm and you’re sitting down with your husband and two house guests discussing a very difficult topic—the sale of your home. Uncharacteristically, your seventeen year-old daughter interrupts the discussion with a stunned look on her face, informing you that police and federal agents are surrounding your house. An armed Sheriff’s deputy has followed closely behind her and now stands before you asking, “Are you Anna L. Bradley?”

The scene in the Bradley’s neighborhood Tuesday was much like something you might expect to see on the big screen, or read about in one of those hard to believe mystery novels. But for Annie, her husband Randy and their eight children, it was a very real nightmare.

“I begged them not to take her,” explains her husband. He couldn’t understand why law enforcement was at his house in the middle of the night, demanding $10,000 cash for bail, or they were going to be taking his wife. At 9 o’ clock in the evening, when banks and businesses are closed, it’s close to impossible for an average family to come up with that kind of cash.

So, at approximately 9:41 pm, after local agents from the Utah County Sheriff’s office, accompanied by at least two federal agents, had surreptitiously surrounded the family’s home and afterwards made quite a scene for the neighborhood, law enforcement agents placed Annie Bradley under arrest, handcuffed her, and led her the long way across the front lawn, in front of inquiring neighbors, stunned house guests, her confused and bewildered husband, and perhaps most difficult, in front of her sobbing children.

When asked why they were doing this in the middle of the night, with so little opportunity for the Bradleys to even reach an attorney, one member of the Utah County Sheriff’s department replied, “Well, we don’t usually deal with nice folks like you.” Annie was booked into jail and held on $10,000 bail.

Annie Bradley's Arrest Photograph

While the image of her arrest might seem dramatic, the facts surrounding her arrest are even more bizarre. Annie Bradley wasn’t arrested, as it turns out, because she’s suspected of committing some violent crime. The barrage of law enforcement officers didn’t surround her house to execute an arrest warrant because she’s suspected of some kind of drug involvement or some other dangerous crime. Annie Bradley was arrested because she and her husband have been caught up in a political battle related to the Utah Department of Commerce.

In February of this year that Utah Division of Securities Director Wayne Klein resigned under a cloud of suspicion for corruption and mismanagement. Randy and Annie Bradley were one of the cases originally overseen by Klein. Earlier this summer, on July 3rd, an independent audit of the Division was delivered to the State Legislature citing widespread abuses, mismanagement, miscarriages of justice and a government agency rife with internal conflict, lack of leadership and suffering serious internal divisions.

But what does this have to do with Annie Bradley?

Well, let’s start with the basics. A lifelong resident of Utah County, the last year and a half has been an exceptionally difficult time financially for Annie her family. In a situation becoming all too common in America today, with the mortgage market in shambles, and the credit industry in upheaval, Annie and her family are in the middle of an unplanned move. The guests in her home Tuesday night when she was arrested, were negotiating the purchase of several pieces of furniture to be sold along with their house.

The previous success of her husband’s small business Race Holdings, LLC—which had enabled the family to move from Springville just a year and a half ago into their dream home on the west side of Mapleton—has become a thing of the past. With no business income to speak of for most of the past year, the family has been living on food storage, modest financial reserves, and the hard work of the entire family to bring in whatever they can. Randy has recently taken a job working over six hours away from his family, in Montana.

The Bradleys however, are no strangers to hard work or sticking together. Generations of both sides of the family have made a living at hard work in Utah, with no troubles or run ins with the law and no questions about their integrity or reputation. What they are unable to comprehend however is in the midst of these difficult circumstances, why was Annie Bradley arrested, handcuffed and taken from her family in the middle of the night.

The entire Bradley Family

What would cause the Utah County Sheriff’s office, in conjunction with Federal Agents, to surround the family’s home as if they were conducting some kind of undercover sting operation? Why would law enforcement arrest a stay-at-home mother in the middle of the night when it’s almost impossible for the family or friends to reach an attorney or to get access to cash for bail?

The charges made against Mrs. Bradley, according to the affidavits and other documents provided by the Utah Division of Securities allege that Annie was involved in committing securities fraud against her neighbor. The Bradleys dispute the charges. Annie Bradley never worked for her husband’s business and was never an employee or manager of the company.

The neighbor, Mrs. Wendy Hendry, who owns and manages her own real estate related investment company loaned $30,000 to Race Holdings, LLC in June of 2007. The loan from Mrs. Hendry’s company to Mr. Bradley’s company, was a high interest loan charging 36% annual interest. According to banking records the entire loan plus interest and fees was repaid in full by Race Holdings in November of 2007. No subsequent business was transacted between the parties. Annie Bradley had nothing to do with it.

So what were the grounds upon which to make such a dramatic arrest of Mrs. Bradley? Apparently, Annie was arrested as part of a legal strategy related to another case being investigated by Securities Division Enforcement Director Michael Hines under the direction of his superior Ms. Francine Giani the Executive Director of the Utah Department of Commerce. Their plan was evidently to increase pressure on Annie’s husband, Annie’s friends and some of her husband’s former business associates related to another case.

Substantiating the chain of events is a reputable and prominent Utah County securities attorney who has represented clients and worked directly with the Utah Division of Securities for more than a decade. FCD has obtained multiple audio recordings substantiating the shocking reality behind Mrs. Bradley’s arrest, but has been asked not to reveal the identity of this attorney for fear of reprisal and other consequences from the Utah Government.

Apparently Mr. Hines believed that Randy would do “just about anything” to keep his wife out of jail. In the recordings obtained by FCD it is revealed that Mr. Hines’ intention was a strategic decision to implicate Mrs. Bradley regardless of her actual involvement in any suspected wrongdoing, in order to bring pressure on her husband to “turn State’s evidence.”

Hines reportedly explained,

We have to put maximum pressure on people…and if Mr. Bradley can’t provide me information that would help me then we are going to charge them both The information that would help is for Randy to say contrary to that whole affidavit basically, to say he received misrepresentations.

Annie and her Husband Randy Bradley

In the same conversation Annie and Randy were told that if Randy wasn’t able to provide the information he was looking for, Hines intended to follow through with his threat to put Annie in jail. At one point in the conversation Mr. Bradley can be heard asking,

“What if there isn’t any information… I would have to commit perjury to say that.”

The formal audit released to the public after several complaints about these kinds of abuses, explains that obtaining cooperation or even false confessions under the threat of jail time is a “Division Tactic” where investigators attempt “to coerce cooperation by intimidating and threatening that the person would be arrested.”

At one point in the recordings it is revealed that in an earlier conversation with Hines, prior to her company even being repaid, Mrs. Hendry was uncomfortable with Mr. Hines agenda, insisting;

“We don’t care about the money. Let’s just rip up the promissory note.”

Even though Annie was not involved, even though her neighbor apparently did not want to complain against the Bradleys, and even though Race Holdings, LLC did in fact repay the full amount of the loan in question as per the written agreement, Michael Hines had another objective and it required that the case proceed against Annie.

According to Hines, he could charge Annie with a crime based solely on one conversation she had with her neighbor in church one Sunday. Evidently, during a short stretch of time in mid-2007 when her husband’s business had fallen behind on monthly payments Mrs. Hendry approached Annie looking for re-assurance that the debt would be paid. In defense of her husband, Annie reportedly replied, “My husband is an honest man, and he will repay this debt no matter what.”

Annie Bradley, targeted by Michael Hines

That statement, innocently made by a spouse, in a Sunday church meeting, according to Hines, “constitutes an inappropriate statement or omission of material facts, and therefore constitutes fraud.”

The Bradleys are confused as to how Annie’s statement could be considered fraudulent, especially since her husband later did exactly as she had suggested, ensuring that his business repaid the very high interest loan, plus all interest and fees, as agreed. The Hendrys profited, according to FCD calculations, in excess of $10,000 in six months and received a full recovery of principal prior to the note’s maturity.

Answering the question of how such a situation could be construed as fraud, Utah Securities regulator A. Gary Bowen provided a rather lengthy but insightful explanation. He explains:

“People do not understand the nuance of securities regulation. Most attorneys do not…we can go after these people and we have been just overwhelmed by the filings, you get into my office I’ve got them practically stacked up to the ceiling and I’m not making this up and I’ve got them stacked all over the floor so we’re pursuing them…

“I’m going to recommend you look at section 61-1-1 which is entitled ‘Fraud Unlawful’ and you’re going to discover a definition of fraud that your average attorney is going to be totally clueless about…the nuance that the average attorney doesn’t get, whose competent in real estate, competent in corporate or business law, competent in contract law, is the mere omission of a material fact… do you know what the implication of fraud is, criminal prosecution, time in jail!”

Mr. Bowen who according to his own representations has been charged with advising Utah citizens and business owners about how to avoid breaking the law for more than ten years, later admits that its impossible to pin down what might be construed as “fraud” if the government wants to press charges. He continues,

“If you look at our definitions section, I’ve been working for this for years and read it a number of times but it really sunk into me here this summer when I was reading it and talking to someone like you, you go in and read the definition actually under 61-1-13 of fraud, and its one of those things that you say, well, what does that mean? The answer is, I don’t know.”

With a definition like this, its no wonder that Utah has become known by some as the “fraud capitols” of the West. Mr. Bowen’s advise boils down to a simple axiom. If the government thinks it is fraud, its fraud.

Even experienced attorneys, according to Mr. Bowen, can’t understand what the enlightened public servants in the Department of Commerce might allege. Or, in short, all Utahan’s should be very careful when discussing their spouse’s integrity in church on Sunday.

As 2008 rolled around, the Bradleys lived with the daily uncertainty and fear of being charged with fraud as a result of Mr. Hines strategy. It didn’t seem to matter that both parties agreed the loan had been satisfied and that Annie Bradley had nothing to do with it, other than being married to the business owner.

At one point Randy reveals that the stress became unbearable.

“I came close to considering saying whatever Mr. Hines wanted me to say if it meant it would keep my wife out of jail. I decided against it, but I couldn’t trust Hines anyway if he was willing to build another case based upon a lie.”

Resigned. Former Director Wayne Klein

But this past February things started to look brighter from the Bradley’s perspective, when Utah Securities Director Wayne Klein was forced to resign because of scrutiny being placed on the Securities Division for its alleged abuses. The Bradleys along with many small business owners in Utah hoped a new Director would be more just in his oversight of the Division and more effective at reigning in employees like Hines.

Lying, by “any person” during a proceeding under Sate Securities Laws is a 3rd degree felony. While Randy decided against going along with the enticements of Hines, Audit Manager Tim Osterstock’s performance audit of the Division clearly documents that the Division had been engaging in deceptive practices, evidently believing that government employees are exempt from the requirements of the law.

“The division has, at times, violated the terms of its settlement agreements. In one case, the division agreed to not publicize the action or commence further administrative actions and then violated both terms of the agreement. The person accused told us he felt compelled to plead guilty to a lesser criminal charge rather than place his business in jeopardy defending a greater charge. The division agreed to not seek additional charges but nevertheless pursued an administrative action. The respondent then signed the settlement agreement after the division agreed to not publicize it. However, the day the settlement was signed, the division publicized the information on its web page and also published the information in its newsletter the following month.”

The audit also revealed that the Division made false allegations against innocent businessmen as part of its coercive tactics, obtained false confessions and false settlements by threatening citizens with arrest and jail time, and that the State of Utah had been violating its own legal settlements with impunity while Department employees escaped criminal investigation for such activity that clearly violates State law.

With this information now public, the Bradleys anxiously waited for the government to take action to reform the Department. They also continued to correspond regularly through their attorney with the Division of Securities and specifically with Securities Division attorney Scott Davis who works for the Utah Attorney General’s office.

Mr. Davis corresponded multiple times with the Bradleys about resolving the civil concerns raised by the Division, but never informed the Bradleys that they were in eminent danger of being arrested or criminally charged. Things seemed to be looking better for the Bradleys, and they were hopeful they could soon put this troubling ordeal behind them.

Then, out of the blue, new rumors began circulating of the Bradley’s pending arrest. The rumors came from the most unusual of places. For some unexplainable reason in early August of this year, Mr. Hines called Ron Hendry and explained that the Bradleys were being charged criminally and would soon be arrested.

“I didn’t know what to make of it,” said Randy about the phone call from Hines to Hendry. Mr. Hendry subsequently began sharing the information with other Bradley neighbors including their religious leaders.

Although the Hendry’s had profited handsomely from their transaction with Race Holdings, Mr. Hines, in very questionable legal territory, evidently had some reason for giving them a “heads up.” As it turns out, Hines had told the Hendreys that they were witnesses, as victims, in the now criminal case against both Randy and Annie.

Hines, according to Ron Hendry, had been in contact with them seven our eight times throughout the months of June and July. During this same time, the Bradleys unsuspectingly continued to hope things were getting closer to being resolved.

When Randy received a surprise phone call from his local Bishop asking about his pending arrest, he wasn’t sure if Ron Hendry was just spreading gossip, or if the strange collaboration between he and Hines were actually fact. So, through their attorney the Bradleys went straight to the government. They contacted Scott Davis of the Utah Attorney General’s office. Randy explains,

“I thought we were working things out. Through our attorney we were in regular communication with the State. They are the ones who postponed our last meeting. Through our attorney we contacted the Attorney General’s office and Scott Davis, the man we were told was the attorney for the Division and he acted surprised and claimed he knew nothing about any criminal charges. He acted completely embarrassed and didn’t seem to know what Michael Hines was up to.”

Huntsman Appointee, Executive Director of the Utah Department of Commerce, Francine Giani

Seeking to defend herself and her Department, once the audit was released, Francine Giani publicly insisted that her Department had taken all necessary corrective action. However, one of the major indictments in the audit was that Giani’s staff was repeatedly in violation of Utah State law related to how the State’s lawyers from the Attorney General’s office were being ignored as the Division pursued its own agenda. The audit reads in part,

“[S]taff from the AG’s office are assigned to represent the division. Securities law states “The attorney general shall advise and represent the division and its staff in all matters, administrative or judicial, requiring legal counsel or services in the exercise or defense of the division’s power or the performance of its duties” (Utah Code 61-1-21.5). There have been conflicts with both how the former director utilized the attorneys representing the division and the level of authority the attorneys should have in defining division activities. In some cases, it appears the former director assumed the role of the attorney.”

Despite the Attorney General’s office claiming that they knew nothing about criminal charges or arrest warrants, to the shock of Annie, Randy, and their attorney, such warrants were indeed issued. Randy was arrested on August 29, 2007.

After Randy’s arrest he worried that his wife would be next. Through their Attorney, the Bradleys made an agreement with prosecutors that with Randy voluntarily returning from his job in Montana, surrendering to the Utah County Sheriff’s office, and providing the required $10,000 bail, the warrant for Annie’s arrest would be withdrawn. A few short days later however, local and federal agents were surrounding the Bradley’s home and in almost no time, Annie was in jail.

“I told them that we had already taken care of things,” says Randy.

“I begged them not to take her. I explained that the prosecutor had agreed to release the warrant for Annie’s arreset since I cooperated and posted $10,000 bail. The Deputy told me that he believed me, but since I had nothing to prove it, there was nothing he could do. I wasn’t angry at the Sheriff’s office, they were professional and doing what they were supposed to do. But, who is going to stop Michael Hines from ruining people’s lives while he does whatever he wants? That is what makes me so angry. He doesn’t care about my wife, my kids, or our family.”

Annie and Her Two Daughters

So, how and why was Annie arrested so dramatically this past Tuesday night, even after the prosecutors had agreed to release the warent for her arrest? Why didn’t the government follow the usual procedure when dealing with reputable citizens, not charged with violent crime, having no past criminal history, and just deliver a “Summons to Appear?” Evidently, that wouldn’t work for Mr. Hines strategy.

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Annie Bradley was arrested because Randy and Annie had the courage to resist Mr. Hines for almost a year. That, evidently, is just not acceptable to the State of Utah, Department of Commerce.

It’s not just the Bradleys who have had to make this tough choice. The pattern of unjust enforcement by the Division of Securities is revealed unmistakingly in the formal audit results, but Ms. Giani and her boss Utah Governor Jon Huntsman Jr., have neglected to address the gravity of the situation. Certainly, Ms. Giani and the new Securities Director Keith Woodwell have failed to reign in Hines and others engaged in the abusive practices.

The actual truth related to Annie Bradley’s arrest might have never come to light except that a number of individuals, attorneys, businessmen and even Department of Commerce employees have grown weary of this unchecked abuse and have begun using audio recording’s to try and help document this behavior.

The recordings obtained by FCD are a collection from multiple sources, and cover a multitude of cases. These recordings, and hopefully others yet to be provided to FCD by interested citizens, are beginning to serve as a powerful tool to provide critical insight and political leverage to address this rogue government agency reeling from criticisms, rife with internal conflict and desperate to cover-up its own current and past misdeeds.

Nevertheless, some bureaucrats can’t seem to understand how persecuting small businessmen in Utah (and their wives) is the same as persecuting normal families. Some government officials can’t seem to understand how unjust it is to have a government agency justify their supposed administration of justice with lies, cover-ups, excessive force, coercion and deceit.

Annie Bradley’s arrest is one more revelation in a series of events alerting Utahan’s to the very real consequences of a corrupt government agency, the conduct of malicious bureaucrats and an incompetent government appointee—Francine Giani—who seems more worried about the appearance of “protecting investors” than she is about following Utah’s laws and protecting all Utah citizen’s civil rights.

The Bradleys have now had to come up with $20,000 cash bail so that they could continue remain free to take care of their family while continuing their fight against a corrupt government investigation. This amount pales in comparison to the mounting legal costs they’re incurring in a legal circus that could last many more months if not years.

But, instead of heaping added difficulty on their heads, the State of Utah should be issuing the Bradleys a sincere apology as part of its first step to clean up the seriously damaged reputation of the Utah Government. We should all be grateful for families like the Bradley’s that stand up to corruption, that work constantly to provide a good life for their children, that conduct an honest business, and do all they can–even if they’re late on payments—to always pay their personal and business debts as agreed.

“This has probably been the most difficult emotional thing that has ever happened in our lives, but we’re going make it through,” says Randy, soberly. “Annie has said that if this is what it takes so that someone will finally put a stop to people like Michael Hines, its okay, I’m okay with it.”

In the face of America’s current economic difficulties it seems like the Executive Branch of Utah’s government has somehow forgotten the virtue of families like the Bradleys and the responsibility to protect all Utah citizens equally. It is, after all, small businessmen and women, along with their families, who regularly take risks and assume responsibilities that creates more jobs, deliver more services, and add more value to our community than any government appointee and her bureaucrats.

Despite Mrs. Giani’s public assurances, there is an obvious problem in the Utah Department of Commerce. Evidently this problem extends all the way to the head of the Executive Branch into the office of Governor Jon Huntsman.

Despite calls by numerous state legislators for the removal of Ms. Giani and several of her remaining staff; and despite the multitude of problems revealed in the recent performance audit of her Department; and finally despite even the personal appeals made directly to him from Utah’s own Attorney General for her firing, Governor Jon Huntsman (who is the only elective oversight provided by State law over Francine Giani) seems to share the philosophy of Giani and Hines, namely, that innocent people being wrongly accused is simply a price Utahans should get used to paying if they expect the government to do its job.

That’s an interesting theory of government. No matter how nice, pleasant or polite Governor Jon Huntsman, Jr. comes across — there is no mistaking that he was not elected to simply look good in office. Hard decisions sometimes have to be made, and in this case, when dealing with the Department of Commerce, the direct action that needs to be taken just isn’t that hard to discern.

Tyranny, at any level, only works for so long. What is happening in the Utah Department of Commerce is wickedness; there is no way to skirt around the issue. A full audit of all divisions within her stewardship will reveal even more succinctly that it is time for leadership in the Governor’s office, in the legislature, and in the judiciary in dealing with abuses like the Giani’s absurd, forceful, and dramatic arrest of Annie Bradley.

This problem will come to a head and the unjust, and in some cases criminal, activity of government bureaucrats along with the startling incompetence of executive management in the Department of Commerce will ultimately cost some politicians and employees their jobs. Someone with courage will ultimately step forward to address and correct the very serious problems.

In the mean time however, the dirty politics and renegade operations of the Utah Department of Commerce will ensure that more Utah families like the Bradleys will be trying to explain to their small children why mommy or daddy was dragged away in handcuffs, in the middle of the night.

It just doesn’t seem like America.

The Bradleys

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